uh the Hamas have made approximately
half a billion dollar in profit from the
black market in the aid they have stolen
since October 7 wow across the world
when Nations go to war the average is 1
to n nine civilians every competent kill
one to one is unheard of no country in
the world has ever managed to reduce the
number of civilians killed in the way
that Israel has and yet Israel is being
accused by the prosecutor of the
international criminal court of
willfully killing
civilians international law and human
rights law has not stopped any of these
things it's not stopped Putin it's not
stopped China from oppressing its own
Wagers and others it's not stopped Assad
in Syria from killing Untold hundreds of
thousands of people it doesn't stop
tyrants ICC is always being a political
C that's why human rights law has now
unfortunately generally human rights
cult culture human rights law human
rights institutions the ICC the icj the
international court of justice the
United Nations all the big NOS
non-governmental organizations that deal
with human rights they've all been
captured by an ideology which basically
says Jewish state of Israel must go the
Tories I mean they're not for nothing
where they call the stupid party they
really really really are stupid do I
think that Britain and the West are
going to survive
[Music]
hello and welcome to the Winston
Marshall show with me Winston Marshall I
sat down with times col columnist and
author Melanie Phillips we discussed
amongst other things the war in Israel
what the protests across the West mean
for the West we talked about
universalism Melanie wants to abolish
the United Nations that's not the most
controversial thing she even said in
this interview so you must listen to the
whole thing she's giggling now and off
screen uh off camera um before you
listen to Melanie I ask if you want to
support the show all you have to do is
press subscribe if you press the
Subscribe button I can to have more
phenomenal guests like Melanie
discussing the issues that you want to
hear about but without further Ado
Melanie Phillips
thank you for watching the Winston
Marshall
show Melanie Phillips what a pleasure to
speak with you thank you I I'm not sure
I've ever had a guest who's published so
many deep
uh writings and and on on so many
different topics I i' there's so many
things we could cover today um and the
the the difficulty here wasn't trying to
find questions for you the difficulty
was trying to wh them down I've managed
to whittle it down to five pages which
I'm sure we're not going to be able to
get through I'm going to I'm Keen to get
through your recent Times article about
the ICC but before that I'm going to ask
a very broad question if you don't
mind since the Gaza War started October
7th we have seen in here in London
marches almost every week starting from
October 9th or even this activity on
October 8th even October
7th we've seen on at University campuses
from Columbia down to University of
Texas here in Britain Oxford to
Cambridge we've seen encampments of
students protesting Israel's war I
wondered what you thought that those
marches and those encampments can tell
us about the West today what they can
tell us about Britain and America
today well first of all I a British Jew
although I spend a lot of time now most
of my time now in Israel but I'm in
Britain a great deal um and I'm still
very very um concerned with and affected
by what's going on in Britain and for
Jewish people in
Britain these
demonstrations what they're saying what
they represent what they look like it's
hard to
exaggerate the Despair and sense of
Abandonment and isolation and fear uh
that has gripped the Jewish community
Through these demonstrations because to
me and I speak for many in the Jewish
community in Britain in saying this
although there are some who obviously
would
disagree but for me what they represent
is not just a protest at a foreign war
in which they are taking one side
against another the people are entitled
to protest people are entitled to
protest about the policies of the state
of Israel just as they're entitled to
protest about anything people entitled
have their
view but this isn't that kind of
protest this is these are demonstrations
which let's not forget started on
October the 7th while the uh Hamas
Stormtroopers were still engaged in
murdering in slaughtering in raping in
beheading in burning alive women
children and men in southern
Israel in great number while that was
still going
on people in Britain took to the streets
in ecstatic
celebration it wasn't a protest it was
an ecstatic celebration that finally
they were killing Jews finally they
thought they were going to destroy
Israel and finally they were on the way
to overturning Western
civilization that's what came
out in subsequent weeks and months we've
seen these demonstrations all the time
and to a Jew and to many who are
non-jews but who are looking at this in
horror they are demonstrations of power
power play and hatred and incitement to
hatred and
violence in large measure because of
what they're
saying um some of the slogans are
screamed in Arabic uh but we all now
know surely what they say from The River
To The Sea Palestine will be free is not
some Kumbaya expression of let's all
live together in a happy Unity Jews and
Muslims and Arabs together no what it
means is Palestine as they would put it
IE the entire state of Israel should be
free of Jews in Arabic the slogan
is I think from the river to the water
Palestine will be Arab that's what it
actually
says um they're saying globalize the
interf it doesn't matter whether what
people whether people who are screaming
this know what they're is saying even
but what it actually means is the
interfa was a murderous campaign a
campaign of mass murder against Israeli
Jews and other Israelis also were taken
up in that where other Israelis were
targeted um uh and slaughtered but
nevertheless it's Bas basically against
zionists which is basically Jews and
globalized the inter father means let's
kill Jews
everywhere now if you are a British Jew
and you're hearing this screamed every
week um and you also have experience or
not a personal experience but you hear
of what's going on that people on these
demonstrations are being
assaulted um and that if you are a
counter demonstrator if you stand up as
this uh this one chap uh who is not uh
an pro-israel supporter P per se he's an
he's an anti-iranian regime supporter an
anti- anti-iranian regime protester and
Iran the Iranian regime is behind the
Hamas another story so he's on these
demonstrations um as a counter
demonstrator this is the guy of the
Hamas is terrorist son
he gets
arrested uh famously or infamously uh a
campaigner against anti-Semitism gidan
falter uh deliberately went across the
street where there was one of these
demonstrations taking place and was told
by the police you are openly Jewish and
therefore you have to be removed and if
you don't go you'll be arrested um and
we can discuss the reasons for that but
if you're a Jewish person person you can
see that you are not going to be
protected you're going to be arrested uh
for daring to exercise your rights as a
free person in Britain and consequently
you know British Jews feel where can who
is going to stand up for us the police
aren't going to protect us they're
clearly not protecting us uh we as
British Jews feel we cannot safely go
into Central London in the Ambit of
these demonstrations when they're taking
place um the Govern government makes
nice noises about you know this is
appalling we can't stand anti-Semitism
but they're doing absolutely nothing um
and there's this feeling of the entire
world uh the the Western world uh rising
up
uh
promulgating lie after lie after lie
about Israel which is inciting hatred
because if you believe what's being said
about Israel you would also hate Israel
um because what's being said is
basically you know it's it's painting
the Jews of Israel the
Israelis per se as some sort of demonic
diabolical conspiracy against decency
when in fact they are resisting
genocide uh because the attacks of
October 7 uh terrible as they were
barbaric and Savage as they were and
people don't realize what actually
happened on that day it wasn't just that
people were killed they were killed and
slaughtered in the most appalling way
but the Hamas was said we will repeat
this over and over again until Israel is
destroyed and
consequently the idea that the
legitimate defense against genocide
which any other country would Undertake
and would go to war to defeat this Force
that's threatening it the idea that if
Israel does it alone among nations if
Israel does it that itself is called
genocide that Israel cannot wage a just
war that it therefore is in the wrong no
other country in the world is treated
like this and so the Jewish Community
thinks are we living in a completely
upside down universe is everybody go mad
and people feel very abandoned as a
result let's let's that that Segways
nicely into what you've written about
the ICC and how Israel are treated on
the
international uh by the International
Community the ICC and specifically a
British lawyer and prosecutor uh at the
um international criminal court named
Kareem Khan has just requested the
arrest warrants of both Netanyahu and
Israel's Ministry of Defense yoav Galant
as well as senior members of Hamas sinoa
uh Muhammad Dave and Ismael Haner I'm
I'm not sure I pronounced those
correctly um so you have written in
protest or rather against this um and so
my question I guess maybe you could
color in exactly what's happened a
little bit for for for listeners but my
question will be is the ICC fit for
purpose uh the answer to your question
is no in my view it was never it was
never fit for purpose um uh this is a
long discussion about the role of
international law um the uh way in which
human rights culture the human rights
law has been deployed as a weapon
specifically against uh Israel Over many
years you've gone further than that
because you said human rights law are
causing quote such Injustice and denial
of Human Rights so you you TCH you did
this recently at the national
conservative conference I believe yes
you you have a a big problem generally
speaking with uh multinational
institution and Multinational I do so
perhaps we can take this in two parts
first of all the court and secondly the
human rights culture that's behind the
court so the international criminal
court has had a very difficult uh career
so far kareim Khan's two predecessors as
prosecutor were uh appalling uh
absolutely incompetent useless and
brought the reputation of the Court
really really uh really down and so it's
kind of in The Last Chance Saloon and
Karim Khan knows that um he is a very by
all accounts very cautious man very
aware that he has to rescue the
reputation of the Court sorry man you
have to fill me in what what what did
they do that brought down the reputation
um they uh dragged their heels over
people who should be prosecuted and uh
spent a great deal of time trying to
persecute Israel uh which is the one
democracy in the Middle East um they
were partisan and incompetent uh I mean
this it's it's a it's a it's a whole
different story but but basically um
kareim Khan was very much aware that he
had to restore the Court's reputation as
a as a as a as um uh an impartial court
of law and consequently to me and to
many others uh we were astonished by
what he's just done for for these
reasons first of all to draw the
equivalence that he drew between
Netanyahu and the Israelis on the one
hand who are defending the country
against genocide and fighting a just War
to equate them with the people who are
trying to perpetrate the genocide who
committed the atrocities of October 7
who are still holding more than
130 Israelis hostage how however many of
those are still alive we don't know um
uh and to threaten more um to equate the
two the perpetrators of genocide and the
Defenders against it is obscene that's
the first thing the second thing is that
he did it uh in his request for the
arrest warrant by deploying all the lies
that are the boilerplate of people who
want Israel destroyed they are lies
every single one of them is a lie so for
example uh the lie that Israel is uh or
Israel's Defense Forces um are
deliberately inflicting starvation upon
the people of Gaza is gain said
immediately by the uh hundreds of trucks
and hundreds of tons of food that have
gone in since the beginning of the war
the lie that Israel has and it's Hamas
in fact who are and it's Hamas who are
stealing the aid and according to one
analyst uh supported by the shinb BET
analysis uh Israel Security Service uh
the Hamas have made approximately half a
billion dollars in profit from the black
market in the aid they have stolen since
October 7 wow and they've used the aid
also for themselves how is anyone
monitoring that how could anyone
possibly know I cannot tell you uh but
people are putting things together they
know how much has come in they know
what's being sold on the black market
and you only have to go on YouTube to
see Garin ordinary
Garin um uh protesting and denouncing
Hamas for stealing the aid from them
both for their own use which enables
them to continue to wage their War Of
Terror and also to sell on the Black
Market at such inflated prices ordinary
garans can't afford it so that's what's
been going on and um so Kareem Khan's um
also an accuses um uh Israel of
willfully willfully killing is gazan
civilians now that is a that is what we
would call in the Jewish Community a
blood Lial it is a Lial
and it accuses Israel or the Israelis of
being demonic literally willfully
killing civilians now what's that based
on it's based on Hamas statistics which
Hamas itself no longer uses everybody in
the western media says you know
35,000 plus civilians have been killed
in Gaza of whom the vast majority are
women and children that fact has incited
hatred of Israel hatred of Jews who for
who support
Israel there's various problems sorry
over time over the over the last few
months um experts came forward
statisticians and said these figures are
statistically impossible they've been
made up and so authoritative were these
criticisms that the Hamas itself the
Hamas run Health ministry that's
producing these
statistics uh quietly downgraded its own
figures
lowered the numbers and said uh we've
taken some of these numbers from the
media
hello this was not reported in the
British media at all lo and behold May
the eth the United Nations which had
hitherto used the Hamas run Health
Ministry figures as
authoritative the UN quietly without
saying anything halved its estimate of
the number of Garin civilians killed
halved it as a result I don't think
that's actually quite accurate sorry I
think they halved the number of women
and children but not the actual total
number the total number was in was was I
think generally
half cuz I it was it was half the half
number they kep around the 35,000 Mark
but they lowered down the they then
tried to M Massage it they then tried to
say
well the figure of 35,000 remains it's
just that um we can't Identify some of
them but the lack of identification
means that they just don't know so
anyway the fact was they grossly reduced
greatly reduced the figure without
telling anybody Now The crucial thing is
this even if you even if you adopted the
the original Hamas figures of
35,000 um and certainly if you reduce it
by
whatever um Israel estimates said it's
killed approximately
14,000
terrorists now that works out I mean I'm
not very good at doing this on the top
of my head but it works out at
approximately 1 point something to one
civilian to combatant killed now across
the world when Nations go to war the
average is 1 to n nine civilans for
every competent killed one to one is
unheard of no country in the world has
ever managed to reduce the number of
civilians killed in the way that Israel
has and yet Israel is being accused by
the prosecutor of the international
criminal court of willfully
killing civilians now that is a wicked
lie so those are the things that he did
and the final thing I would say about
the criminal court what he's done is
they the criminal court the
international criminal court has a
bedrock foundational principle it does
not have jurisdiction in other words it
doesn't get involved in a state's
Affairs um if the state itself uh ha is
willing to investigate or has the
capacity to investigate uh the charges
that are being laid against it and
because of that fact the criminal the
the ICC must give the state time to
investigate the claims that the ICC is
making against it now it hasn't given
Israel any time it went ahead the
prosecutor went ahead and just received
his request for the arrest warrants and
it couldn't have given Israel time
because Israel is still in the middle of
the war it can't address these these
claims because the war is still going on
so what Karem Khan has done is to ride a
coach on horses through the foundational
principle of the Criminal Court of the
international criminal court so that's
the criminal
court on human rights um
I have long been an opponent of I put it
in inverted commment human rights
because these are presented as universal
human rights um and in fact they are not
Universal they are highly contingent
they are created as a result of um
documents conventions drawn up by people
and they are arbitrated by judges for
every human right there is a contrary
right it depends entirely on the judges
arbitrating between these things um
which I think is dubious in itself
because it allows the court to play
politics secondly it relies on a body of
law which is international in other
words it's not fixed to any one nation's
jurisdiction now to me law has the force
and Authority that it does because it
comes from a nation a nation expresses
its culture through the laws which
Define the boundaries of what's
acceptable and not acceptable in that
culture those laws are drawn up in a
democracy by democratically elected
representative bodies called parliaments
those are the laws of the nation and
they have validity because they're
fundamentally founded in the consent of
the people of that nation and they
express the culture and traditions of
that Nation okay can I make can I make a
interruption
a counter to that which is that let's
say hypothetically although I think
there have been examples of this you are
a young woman in Iran or in Afghanistan
under the Taliban under the Iranian
regime
yeah and there have been examples where
these women appeal to international
human rights in order to deal with the
oppression that they face themselves so
is that not an example of when it's good
that we have in principle absolutely and
that's why it was invented in the first
place it was invented basically by
mainly by Jews and others but between
the wars and especially after the war on
the basis
that by definition because of the terror
of Naz the the Nazi Terror and because
even before the Nazi Terror the
oppression of Jews in Eastern Europe the
pogroms and so on uh by definition the
Nations uh um uh structures of the the
the structures of those Nations could
not be relied on to administer Justice
by definition they were not
administering Justice and therefore in
order to protect these minorities the
International Community had to get
together and make laws that was the
whole purpose of it a noble purpose but
in fact it doesn't work like that
because tyrants don't accept any of this
international law and human rights law
has not stopped any of these things it's
not stopped Putin it's not stopped China
from oppressing its own Wagers and
others it's not stop Assad in Syria from
killing Untold hundreds of thousands of
people it doesn't stop tyrants and what
was said at the time that international
human rights law was being devised for
the most noble of reasons was that if
you don't anchor it in a nation's
culture and its
parliaments if it's detached from a
nation if it's a free floating
thing then it's going to be captured by
politics it's going to be a political
court and that's why the U the ICC has
always been a political court and that's
why human rights law has now
unfortunately generally human rights
culture human rights law human rights
institutions the
ICC uh the icj the international court
of justice the United Nations all the
big NOS non-governmental organizations
that deal with human rights they've all
been captured by an ideology which
basically
says the Jewish state
of Israel must go and that's why we see
this you know all these human rights
institutions are viciously anti-israel
because human rights has become a
political instrument of the attempt to
destroy Israel if I can illustrate the
ABS absurdity it uh I don't know if
you've seen this but the European Court
of human rights have just ruled against
the Swiss government because 2,000 women
over 64 claimed that climate change was
affect ing their health and they won the
case the Swiss government now has to
implement policy and recompense the
legal fees of these 2,000 women so that
that's an example of how absurd this has
got but my question would be what's the
alternative are you saying abolish all
of these
things and what what's the best way for
Nations to deal with such injustices
what I'm about to say will uh perhaps
shock you to the Core and it will shock
everybody who subscribes to the
unchallengeable view that there is
nothing worse than War ever War has to
be avoided and that's why you do law
that's why you do human rights law what
do you put in its place you put in its
place National Democratic Democrat the
laws of democratic nations I mean the
idea for example if Britain were to you
know come out of the European convention
on human rights which is a matter of
some discussion at the moment and
everybody says this would be appalling
it would mean we have no human rights
anymore excuse me Britain invented them
invented invented Liberty political
Liberty uh a tradition that has been uh
enshrined in the common law the most
Liberty fulfilling Doctrine ever um
and in my view Liberty in Britain has
been much constrained by the impact of
the European convention on human rights
which is man-made law arbitrated by
judges which sets one set of so-called
rights which actually demands against
another set of so-called rights which
actually demands and someone then loses
so I think that democratic nations
should make their own laws but we're not
talking about democratic nations clearly
we're talking you're talking quite
rightly about the problem that arises in
non-democratic Nations which oppress
people which really oppress people and
for that you
know I mean again you know human rights
law does not give us the ability to hold
these people to account it's happened
once or
twice uh uh you know mosovich uh was
brought to justice but it's very very
very rare uh most tyrants get away with
it how does one stop Putin one has to
fight him how does one stop China one
has to fight it not necessarily through
War you can do it by economic sanctions
you do it by excluding them from the
community of civilized Nations you know
how do you fight Iran um we have this
enormous human rights
infrastructure Iran is about to get the
nuclear bomb and Iran is threatening
genocide he might already have it he
threatening genocide against Israel and
it's threatening war against the against
the West how does one stop that through
the human rights Court excuse me me this
is absurd how does one stop the op the
terrible oppression of the Iranian
people particularly Iranian women who
are who are Beyond heroic in the attempt
they're making have been making over
many years to oppose the
regime I mean the idea that
international human rights law has any
effect on any of that is ridiculous if
we in the west want to stop that and we
should we should taking we should have
taken and we should be taking cine
action against Iran we should have
starved it of money we should have
starved it of all diplomatic um
connections we should have made it a
Parian Nation we should have bankrupted
it we should have brought the regime to
its knees we choose not to say that not
to do that we choose instead to appease
it through America through Britain
through various in various ways we've
chosen collectively to appease it to
Finance it by funneling vast amounts of
money into it and then we as the West
have the audacity to say that we
actually support human rights because we
subscribe to the European convention on
human rights and we support the ICC and
the icj and the UN I mean what hypocrisy
is this what planet are people living on
when did it go wrong in in in do you
think as you say it started after the
second war can you can you pinpoint a
specific point where it went of course
or was it flawed from the beginning well
I think it was fundamentally flawed from
the beginning conceptually as I say
there were one or two people at the time
uh who perceived that if you had a free
floating set of laws not anchored in a
national jurisdiction you would end up
oppressing the wrong people you would
end up Prosecuting the wrong people I
should say and letting the right and
letting the people who should be
prosecuting off the hook so that was
seen from the beginning um so the
conceptual flaw was there from the
beginning but in practice when it went
wrong I would say would be around the
1970s or so that's that sort of that
sort of era when
um
uh the uh I think two things happened
which were connected the United Nations
became uh started to become dominated by
the What's called the I think they're
called the nonaligned Nations um which
were basically radical Marxist it was
Radical Marxist view um which basically
divided the world into oppressor and
oppressed the West Was the oppressor
that was infiltrated the UN yes yes
because the countries of the UN um the
UN expanded its uh it's it's it's um
it's its number it didn't start off as
as as what it is now i' forgotten how
many countries it is now but it was much
much smaller um anyway um a whole bunch
bunch of Nations sort of came on stream
which were very radical um and which
were dominated by uh by uh the Islamic
World um very very
anti-israel um and um that coincided
with the I would say the
spread uh of uh what I would call
basically radical hard-left views into
the universities of the West uh which I
think was a long uh a long planned
process to
subvert um the core
codes and traditions of the West from
inside so it was a kind of you know was
called the Long March through the
institutions that was getting going in
the 70s um and those two things I think
um and and and and so those that those
things came together and and human
rights human rights law human rights
culture became a thing um it became a
thing on the Progressive left I remember
you know when Tony Blair uh came to
power in what was it
1979 um Human Rights was the big thing
you know it was going to create the
Brave New World in which Prejudice would
be excised from the human heart and
nations would no longer do War they
would do law and
every global conflict including and in
particular the Middle East conflict as
it was called uh which is actually the
Arab war of extermination against
Israel but that was reframed as a
conflict over land which had to be uh
like every other conflict in the world
was susceptible to negotiation and
compromise because basically everybody
in the world wanted the same thing as
everybody else they wanted just to live
in peace and all the rest of it and so
you found common ground there's always
Common Ground you could find so you
negotiate with fanatic
lunatics of course because there's
common ground because they're not
fanatic lunatics because we in the west
this is was the I think the the thinking
behind it we in the west who've invented
the human rights culture we in the west
know that everyone thinks like us
because our views are Universal they're
universally applicable and the you know
the Primacy of reason and therefore the
Primacy of the of the ability to
compromise on everything is hardwired
into all of us desire disaster you re
reframe a war of extermination against
Israel as a conflict over land
boundaries you will empower the people
who wish to exterminate Israel and
that's what's happened over many years
so
um those things became you know the the
human
rights I would say culture it was like
an ideal of creating the Brotherhood of
Man through this creating a new world
answer able to law not war no violence
no killing it was the John lenon imagine
imagine a world in which you know there
is no there are no divisions it's all
fine that was Blair that was Blair um
and he was simply reflecting a mood that
had arrived descended I think mainly
through the universities you know he
didn't invent this he was an ex an a
prime Expositor of it but he had the
power to to make it real and so in law
he introduced the human rights culture
into Britain um in a big way uh because
that's what he was doing he was creating
a a new Society year zero so you want to
abolish the United Nations
absolutely I'm okay absolutely of course
it is the epicenter of evil in the world
people don't realize this it the
epicenter wow so you really put it at
the feet of the United Nations all of
this yes United Nations and Hamas are in
bed
together okay now you have to explain
that to
me the United Nations is because they
haven't I haven't seen any them being
saying they're Ed together I mean the
United Nations are not pro Hamas yes
they are well oh yes they are convince
me Mr gutterz however you pronounce his
name who is the uh the direct director
general of of of the of the UN yeah
um on October 7 said basically terrible
what happened but you know it's Israel's
fault it's the United
Nations the supposed Crucible of peace
and Justice in the
world the Arbiter of peace and Justice
in the world that's where they started
then you look at what they have done
over
Israel um it is astounding the UN Human
Rights Council is a joke uh at the mo it
has kleptocracies and tyrannies on the
Human Rights Council all the time it has
a standing order as it were to treat
Israel quite differently from any other
country Israel the one democracy in the
Middle East has had more resolutions
against it at the Human Rights Council
of the United Nations than I think all
the other countries of the world put
together just imagine one democracy in
the Middle East I mean all those
terrible tyranis this is insane um I can
go through through this you know un
staff uh not just anti-israel but
profoundly
anti-semitic they make these these
appalling anti-semitic comments and they
go on and on come to October 7 um and
the focus is on the United Nations
relief and works uh Department ana ana
um which administers humanitarian Aid
schools um Aid in Gaza and what do we
find we find long story short that
thousands of them are Hamas uh
operatives they're Hamas operatives and
the UN denies it it supports them uh
they are the UN they are the UN and you
know we found was it last week the week
before um the Israelis found uh a a a
major Hamas Terror Center in a un in an
unrea either school or medical facility
the hospitals are all un are are all are
all Hamas um Terror facilities what the
Israelis have found the UN is a silent
about this but also says it's it's all
lies um it uh when I say silent it has
never admitted it to any of it he never
expressed any concern despite copious
evidence so that's why I say um the UN
is in bed with Hamas and when you look
at you know the the the conflicts in the
rest of the world I mean the UN you know
look at Syria Russia the idea that
Russia and China are have a have a
security Council presence which can
affect the
binding decisions of the United Nations
this is insane how can you have Russia
and China in such a position how can you
have countries like Iran in such a
position on the human rights in the
human rights part of the UN I mean does
no one sat sit and actually think about
this people do but but it's like an
inertia because people are still fixated
on this idea that in order to have
Global Peace and Justice you must have a
global institution well no if most of
the countries of the world are tyrannies
and kleptocracies and deniers of Human
Rights and genocid dists and
imperialists and Rogues of one kind or
another if you have a global body it's
going to be dominated by these people
people so how can that Global body ever
be the Arbiter of peace and Justice on
the contrary on the contrary so the
break on this is this in the security
Council The veto power of America all
right okay so that has prevented the
worst of this from from from from taking
place in terms of Security Council
resolutions by bad people being thwarted
okay but nevertheless you've got the
rest of the UN which is regarded as the
Arbiter of peace and Justice and and you
know for for for for much of the West
and certainly for the entire Progressive
part of the west but also the
non-progressive part of the West
everyone accepts you know just assumes
that the UN is basically beneficent a
Force for good in the world it might be
a little ineffectual but a Force for
good no it's you in your book
londonistan published in 2006 you
describe an allergy to the concept of
nationalism or what might be described
as patriotism or nation statism in the
sort of West fan sense and so there was
a reach a cultural reach for something
greater and I think I can't remember the
exact term that you use is sort of a
progressive
um a progressive reach away from
anything that felt to parochial
parochial and it seems to me that that
underlies why it will be controversial
to hear you say abolish the UN is
because people are actually alergic to
what the alternative I think you're
suggesting implicitly suggesting which
is Nation statism yes I know I know
people are very allergic to it people
think that um the nation
state um is the source historically of
War which is true you know wars were
fought between nations that's undeniably
true um they also think and you know
this is this is sort of separate but
related that um the Western nation state
is a repository of all evil in the world
so the Western nation state is is is is
dominated by by by white people who are
intrinsically racist and oppressive and
colonialist and so the Western nation
state is the is is is is the is the
Expositor of all these terrible things
and therefore in order to to abolish
terrible things like Prejudice and
xenophobia and and and wallering and
violence
between peoples you abolish the N you
you not you don't abolish the nation
state but you supersede the nation state
by a kind of carapace of
internationalism exactly and that is
that is that is that that has been the
kind of ond that's been the sort of
basic premise that the West has has had
for a long time
now so what am I saying so people say oh
so you want to return to the nation
state you want to return to war well I
want to return to the ability for a
people to have self-determination and
express that self-determination of its
own culture through its own laws that it
elects people to to to
pass and
uh if that means that sometimes they are
going to come up against um aggressive
other other states aggressing against
them well then they have to fight that
aggression in whatever way they they
choose not necessarily by military means
in the last analysis in in my view
unless you actually make the other
person the other the other the unless
you make the aggressor believe that you
would in The Last Resort use military
force then you can't really get anywhere
but nevertheless there are many things
you can do before you get to military
force but basically you defend your
nation if you can't defend your nation
you cannot defend the culture that's in
that ation if you are a liberal Society
based on liberal democracy liberal
Democratic principles which the West is
you cannot defend those principles in
your nation if you don't have a nation
you can't defend them by through
universalism there is there is no
Universal agreement on these things you
defend them in your territory which you
define through borders which you police
governed by laws which you pass through
your parliaments that is the whole basis
of of of national
self-determination um so the people who
say oh if you want a nation back then if
you want the Primacy of the nation back
then you want to make war again well no
I want the ability of people to live
freely in accordance with their own
culture that's why I what I want if they
have to defend that against people who
are aggressing against that then they
have to take measures condign measures
economic or military to defend it uh you
don't get anywhere by saying you don't
make a better world by saying well let's
abolish the nation because then you have
not John Lennon's imagine you have a war
of all against all in which the strong
win over the weak which is kind of what
we're seeing we're seeing a Europe
which it it it is it subscribes to
Universalist principles generally
speaking and what do we see we see
Putin's Russia we see uh X's
China and they they can't cope with it
they don't do War anymore they only do
law they do negotiation and compromise
and they got people who like are
saying we can't believe how open this is
for us and Iran is is saying you know
these people are crazy but I mean it's
the the opportunities for us are now
Legion and that's why partly why all
these mobs on the Streets of London and
other Western cities since October
7 they sense it we we we've got them
that's that's what's behind these these
these demonstrations we've got them we
can see how weak they are America is
never going to do War again under Biden
never Iran is attacking has attacked
dozens and dozens of times since October
7 American interests America has fired
back into empty
warehouses it has not taken the action
it needs to defend itself it will do
nothing to upset its I mean this is
mysterious to many people but it wishes
to protect and defend its relationship
with Iran which it sees as playing an
important role in an emerging Middle
East and it will sacrifice Israel and
indeed its own interests to that end I
mean this is like crazy stuff I don't
I'm not sure I I fully follow on that
neither do I
because because America have supported
Israel it's precisely why Biden's being
called genocide Joe in and losing far
left support in in the states no they
haven't well how how how have they
not everything they've done is Janus
faced it is entirely
ambiguous um when Biden yes it's true on
October 7 Biden flew to Israel he said
we stand by you and he dispatched I
think it was two uh aircraft carriers to
the
region and he said
famously apparently to Iran or Hezbollah
or anybody who was threatening Israel
don't but he said don't to
Israel the don't was to Israel the don't
meant we have your back don't do
anything to upset our relationship with
Iran you don't have any need to attack
Iran
you have no need to attack Iran Iran's
proxy Army Hezbollah in
Lebanon heah in Lebanon have
150,000 missiles cited among the
civilian population pointing at the
whole of Israel if Hezbollah really
unleash Israel will be unable to cope
with the bombardment because it's a
matter of the number of missiles and
their range and their precision and
their lethality makes what Hamas had
look
amateur and when October 7 happened
Israel's first
reaction after it
had got hold of what was going on in
southern Israel which took several
days to stop the Carnage
there immediately theb started
unleashing across the border people in
this country in Britain have no idea
what's going on because nobody ever
tells them here the media are
silent there is a constant bombardment
by the Hezbollah in southern Lebanon
against the Border towns of Northern
Israel and in the last few days getting
more and more south theah are
calibrating it very carefully to provoke
Israel only so
far uh because the Hezbollah do not want
want Israel to destroy southern Lebanon
because theah unlike the Hamas really
are dependent on the population to
support them and they don't want to to
upset that esbah is Iran's proxy Army
but they also have an
independent uh status so they're a bit
different from the
Hamas which are Iran's proxy Army in
Gaza but the fact is that there are
hundreds of thousands of Israelis
families both in the South and in the
north who are unable have been unable to
be in their homes for the last eight
months they are refugees inside the
country and that's because they are
continuously being shelled and bombed by
theah in Lebanon Israel's in initial
reaction once they got a handle on what
was going on in southern Israel once
they managed to stop the Carnage by
Hamas in southern
Israel uh their their first reaction
their their first instinct was to
preempt Hezbollah by going to war
against Hezbollah because that's the
great fear because that can actually
murder a very large number of
Israelis and America stopped it and
America has basically ever since while
hand on heart we support Israel in its
attempt to defeat the Hamas they must
defeat the Hamas they must root the
Hamas out they must kill sinoa they must
release the hostages it's done
everything it can to stop that it has
forced Israel to slow down at a great
expense
of Israeli lives young men and women who
are in
combat they are dying because they are
forced not to fight the war in the way
that benefits them they've been forced
all the time to
prioritize America's priorities which
are civilian life in Gaza you must bring
in humanitarian Aid ignoring the fact
that most of that Aid has gone to the
Hamas
itself um and you must not hit the
Hezbollah more than kind of tit fatat
retaliation and you must not attack Iran
and so on and so forth now I mean
they've been micromanaging the war
they've been sending over Anthony
blinkin the Secretary of State and
people from the NSC and all kinds of
people who are basically dictating to
Israel how to win this war how to how to
wage this war and it seems to many
Israelis and it certainly seems to me
that while the Biden Administration
certainly does not wish to have
thousands and thousands tens of
thousands of Israelis murdered on its
watch he does not wish to have it said
that America facilitated a genocide so
it will prevent that from happening but
it will also prevent Israel doing what
it needs to do because for
America in the architecture that it's
trying to that it sees in the Middle
East Iran plays a very important role
and so does the Hamas that's under the
current um Administration it's very
different story under
Trump but that's a whole other uh K of
fish um a couple of days ago the
president of Iran Ibrahim Ry was killed
in a helicopter accident do you what do
you think that does to the conflict
what's your take on that I I can't tell
you I'm I'm not I'm not that sort of
expert I mean uh it seems to have been
an accident um it will affect uh how it
will affect
um uh
Iran in the the Iranian uh um
um position
I can't tell you I'm not I I just don't
know what but what it what it might
do
is be and this is what the Iranians are
really concerned the regime is really
concerned about it was very interesting
when news came through that he had been
killed there were huge Celebrations by
the Iranians the Iranian people
fireworks and the Iranian regime
uh seemed to be amassing its own its own
internal forces in order to preempt any
kind of demonstrations because this is a
point of danger for the regime um the
death of somebody who is regarded well
his nickname was the Butcher of
Teran the death of somebody who has
oppressed has presided over the
oppression torture incarceration and
killing of so many
Iranians um uh could be the spur for a a
much greater Push by the people who can
who will say he's dead now we've got to
get the regime out and this is a point
of danger for the regime and it's a
point of great um optimism for everybody
else in the world who is decent who
wishes the regime to fall so I don't
know how it's going to work out I mean I
I have I have absolutely no idea I'm
afraid I just beyond my pay grade so
slight on the same sort of topic but
slight side step but seeing as you live
in Jerusalem I'm interested from an for
an Israeli perspective on this this is
something I've asked a couple of guests
before which is from Israel's point of
view in this
war the current means of trying also as
we speak the there's the movement
towards Rafa by Israeli
forces is it seems to me that the the
danger of this current strategy there's
two main ones first firstly that Israel
in end up unintentionally killing
killing what hostages are left alive in
Gaza and two even if they defeat Hamas
on paper even if they get rid of many
Hamas militants the ideology of Hamas is
only if anything it would support the
ideology it it sort of proves the
ideology depending how you take
it on on the other hand and this is
something that you alluded to earlier in
this conversation when how America
should deal with Iran about sanctioning
and getting towards the leadership we
know that herass leadership are
currently in Qatar the British
sanctioned the Russians at the beginning
of the Russia Ukraine war it seems to me
that or or at least my question would be
why isn't it that there's been an
attempt to deal with the leadership in
Qatar and Force qatar's Hand
which seems to be and and get rid of the
leadership of Hamas that are there that
seems to me a more logical approach this
war than the conflict in Gaza sorry
that's a bit of a muddled question but I
wondered if you have insight into why
that wasn't the approach there's a lot
of what you say um uh Israel has uh
regarded katar as a kind of
interloc um Israel has made many
mistakes and that's one of them yeah um
Israel's mistakes however are made kind
of almost always because it feels it has
no alternative so we can all argue about
that with 2020 hindsight Vision but the
fact is that after October
7 the war in Gaza could have been
stopped at Birth if America had said to
Kata we got 24 you got 24 hours you call
off Hamas you throw them out of DOA
you call them off and you get them to
return every hostage now otherwise
you're out of here we no longer will
support you we will no longer have you
anywhere near us we will cut off
all all your
benefits the war would have finished
immediately before it was even started
so why hasn't America done that you tell
me I mean I maybe there something we
don't know maybe I don't know but I
would suspect I mean k it's not just
America in Britain I mean Kata has over
many years infiltrated itself into our
Societies in the west it's financed a
vast amount of stuff I mean there are
many many universities which are
financed by ker um football clubs
stadiums
whatever and everybody thought was ker
was basically okay because nobody
actually cared about the fact that it
was it had it it founded Hamas basically
um it sheltered you know Sheik karwi who
was the the principal early um spiritual
mentor of Hamas and it still runs
Hamas they are the same thing so this is
like Madness so you're entirely right
and I can only assume it's it's you know
it's a paradigm that the
West adopted which was like many other
paradigms and Israel was part of that
Netanyahu was part of that um uh
regarding katar as you know the least
worst and therefore we can use them and
we know we have to have some sort of
interlocutor with the Hamas you can see
how it all how how how how sort of
pragmatically a politician gets himself
into that kind of situation 2020
hindsight it was Madness but we are
where we are and they could stop it now
but they don't okay um you say the Hamas
ideology can't be defeated
uh and kind of you know they're in
people argue against that and would say
what we def we defeated Nazi ideology we
def defeated Japanese imperialism but it
it strikes me this is a little bit
different one obvious example it's
different is is deeply it's it's it's
religious it's tied in with Islam it's
for sure for sure but the idea that
first yes you're you're you're right and
you're wrong um the idea that islamism
is uh fueled by um despair you know that
if if we if if Israel spashes the Hamas
that that the the the anger will be so
great that you'll have you'll have many
many more volunteering to be martyrs in
the W of it no do that's not how it
works that's not how it works what
inspires islamists and has inspired them
ever since the Iranian Revolution
happened in 1979 is the prospect of
Victory the success they're inspired by
killing by defeating the enemy whether
it's the whether it's Israel that's what
fuels them we're almost there we're
almost there now what Al so
conversely uh what depresses them in
every sense is
defeat now you're absolutely right you
can't defeat the the ideology of Hamas
what is the ideology of Hamas it's not a
particular ideology unto
itself the ideology of Hamas is the
ideology of the Muslim Brotherhood Hamas
is part of the Muslim Brotherhood and
the Muslim Brotherhood
is uh an organization a movement uh
which is um it it operates uh through uh
it's highly decentralized it operates
through little institutions uh Charities
voluntary groups mosques and it's all
over the west and that's how it carries
uh Jihad whether it's violent Jihad in
certain circumstances or whether it's
INF filtration Jihad to take over a
culture but that's what it's at so of
course you can't defeat hamas's ideology
it's the Brotherhood and the Brotherhood
is everywhere and it will
continue what you can do and what the
Israelis as I as far as I can see what
they're trying to do is to defeat it in
Gaza as a military force so that never
again can Hamas in Gaza or any other
terrorist or entity do to Israel what it
did on October s or Worse that's that's
it that's its limited aim and my
goodness that's that's hard enough
because Hamas is very deeply rooted
literally physically I mean it's
underground um so it's a very very
difficult thing to pull off I don't know
whether they're going to be able to pull
it off but let's assume they do pull it
off let's assume and you they say
they're in ruer I mean you know as of
today there are stories which I believe
to be true that Israel has downg graded
its war war aim in Rafa under pressure
from the Americans the Americans have
put enormous pressure on Israel
threatening to abandon them at the UN
threatening to cut off
arms echoed by the mini
me in uh the foreign office David
Cameron threatening them if you go into
Rafa we will cut you off they don't want
him to go they don't want them to win
okay so Israel is trying to defeat the
remaining battalions in Rafa with both
basically one arm at least tied behind
its back but it's trying to defeat it in
Rafa right I don't know whether it's
going to succeed fine let's assume it
does succeed let's assume that it
achieves its war ends to prevent the
Hamas from ever again posing a military
threat to the citizens of Israel it will
will then have defeated a principal
weapon of War of
Iran and that will have a knock-on
effect because it will be a tremendous
setback for Iran that's why Iran is
going to these enormous lengths to stop
it um because it can't have that without
sustaining great damage to its own aims
of regional domination of war against
the west of the extermination of Israel
and so on
and you know theah is looking is looking
at what's been done already in Gaza and
it's looking at whether Israel is going
to win this because if it doesn't win it
if it's perceived to have lost if sinir
can arise and say I'm here I'm still
here and we're gonna continue then heah
is going to say right we're still in
business
Lads if aah looks at Gaza and sees
hypothetically sinir is dead the Hamas
is finished in Gaza as a military force
do we in the Hezbollah want that to
happen to us no so everything gets put
back to a certain extent into its box
now is that a long-term solution to this
terrible conflict that goes on in the
Middle East no that's another matter but
in terms of you know there's no point in
defeating the Hamas because you can't
defeat them which is an argument that I
hear all the time I think that is a
fundamental misreading of how things
work in the Islamic world and in the
Middle
East the other thing that
seems you might have more insight than
me that if let's say Israel do defeat
the military wing of
Hamas they will now have to occupy Gaza
oh the day after and so it's kind it's
it's it's a nightmare that will Contin
it is a nightmare forever and maybe it's
a question of well we'll cross that
bridge when we get to it but then it's
almost we're going back in circles
around and and these things perpetuate
and this is a matter of great concern
Netanyahu you know whether you like him
or not you have to sort of listen to
what he's saying he has said two things
first of all he has said the day after
is for the day after first of all we
have to defeat the Hamas and that is a
big undertaking and it may take months
it may take a long long time when it
took I don't know how how long it took
the Americans to to defeat Isis and
mosul but it took a long time and mosul
was like a piece of cake compared with
what's going on in Gaza so that's the
first thing you know first things first
okay and we'll talk about the day after
the day after but he has talked about
the day after Netanyahu actually and
everybody has gone thought of oh for
goodness sake it's ridiculous okay but
he has talked about it what he has said
is there has to be in place we don't
want to be in Gaza the Israelis do not
want to be in
Gaza um and we're not going to have a
Palestinian State this is what the
Americans want they want a Palestinian
state in Gaza and they want it run by
the Palestinian Authority now the
Palestinian
Authority is itself highly complicit in
all this first of all the biggest party
in the Palestinian Authority soall
moderate Palestinian Authority run by
Mahmud abas so-called moderate
Statesman the biggest party which is
fatak in the palestin authority whose
leader or chairman whatever he is is m
mm abas fat has said over and over again
what a wonderful thing happened on
October 7 we want many more October 7s
and so on it's first thing second thing
is that Palestinian Authority police
officers have been involved in
atrocities since October 7 against
Israelis third thing is that the
Palestinian Authority is not
moderate it tells the West something in
English which moderate compared to Hamas
no no not even no no it adopts it wears
a suit so it's thought of as moderate
you look at what the palestin authority
teaches its children and I'm talk when I
say children I mean Generations that are
now adults and grandfathers and
grandmothers it teaches them to hate
Jews as Jews it teaches them that their
highest calling is to murder Jews and to
destroy Israel and to steal its land it
doesn't say steal it says take the land
what do they mean they don't mean the
so-called occupied territories they
don't mean Gaza Israel isn't in Gaza
they mean Tel Aviv hia Jaffa the lot
because that's the
agenda
and the complicity of the Palestinian
authorities people with Terror over
years and still today the activities of
the Palestinian Authority in inciting
hate of Jews and using Nazi style
language to do so hatred of Jews and the
desire to murder Israelis and to to take
their land for the whole of their land
this is this is it's it's not a secret
it's not a secret and yet the Americans
want to put the PA into Gaza to run it
now Netanyahu said I'm not having that
so we don't want to be in Gaza running
it we're not having the PA running it so
like like who
good question so Netanyahu says we want
ordinary
garans ordinary Garin who are not Hamas
but who are not the PA we want ordinary
gazin to run Gaza now what does that
mean in practice I can't tell you but he
has said that he has said that and I
think either he has said or people have
surmised that Gaza could be run under a
kind of administration governed by you
know Saudi Arab I Egypt the trouble is
they don't want anything to do with the
Palestinians they hate them Egypt goes
to enormous lengths it's built a wall
it's it's it refuses to send any Aid
Across The Crossings it it it has it
Egypt has sealed the crossing people
don't realize Egypt has a border with
Gaza they hate the Palestinians they
want them gone they won't want anything
to do with them this is a big
problem anyway um it's somewhere in that
region that you can see an
administration of Gaza taking place in
other words we hope that ordinary
garans for whom Hamas has been a
disaster they've robbed them blind
they're corrupt they kill them they
incarcerate them it's just tyranny so we
hope that ordinary garans could be found
to run it decently we hope that's I
think what Netanyahu is getting at under
some sort of
International Co you know confabulation
a regional confabulation of people who
who can who can basically sort out the
nonsense if it starts again I don't know
my personal hope would be some someone
like the emirati stting ex stepping up
they've been absolutely phenomenal if we
can get back to the Abraham Accords
exactly that to me is where there's hope
there's a great example that's the roote
to peace that's the root to peace if you
know you've written a lot about Islam
and and Muslims in the west and
obviously of course Isel to me if you
need a u a better example there is no
better example of the possibility of
peace and trade and nobl with a Muslim
Nation than the emiratis I agree the
emiratis uh leave us like katar which is
a problem the emiratis K katar are part
of that same I know axis of Evil Iran
Russia ham but they're all people
thought the Gulf States but you know
katar is different so Saudi Arabia
emiratis um that's the route to peace
now what the the Americans are doing
which is so wicked it is really wicked
they are dangling over Israel the
prospect of the peace that we all want
through Saudi
Arabia they're dangling that with the
price that it comes through a
Palestinian state governed by the PA in
other words if you want peace with Saudi
Arabia we're we Americans are going to
facilitate that provided that you agree
that what's establish in Gaza is an
Administration that's going to murder
you
again because the Americans are obsessed
with the two- States solution I mean the
Americans I would say it's the Biden
Administration the blinkin and it's
going back to an Obama worldview towards
Iran I I really don't think that was the
case under under Trump with Jared
Kushner but that would maybe is a whole
other conversation um but looking back
over many decades many
administrations they've all had this
this this belief that it's it's a it's a
fight
over land land boundaries the the
division of land no ad American
Administration has ever said this is a
war of extermination against Israel and
we will treat the Palestinians
accordingly if that had happened none of
this would be happening this whole thing
has been facilitated by the West
treating a war of
extermination as a platform for
compromise over land as a result of
which they have facilitated encouraged
sanitized and funded the people bent on
extermination if that were to stop this
whole thing would
stop but no one sees that no one no one
accepts it everyone's obsessed by this
you know it's two states two- State
solution it's the wrong it's the it's a
great answer it's a great answer but
it's the answer to the wrong question if
that was a solution two states it could
have been had in the 1930s when it was
first offered it's been offered to the
Palestinians over and over again by
Israel every time the Palestinians have
refused and have instead murdered
Israelis waged War and the West says oh
no no two-state solution Israel standing
in the way this is to be crazy it's like
I'm not going to even acknowledge the
reality because it's just too difficult
and it gets in the way of my core
beliefs that every problem is
susceptible
to negotiated compromise so of course
war of extermination nonsense this is a
fight over
land it's not and as a result we are
where we are there is someone that's
come up fleetingly in this conversation
that I think might be a way of tying a
few of the different threads with have
together and maybe taking it to a couple
of other questions or topics I hope we
have we can address like a
fractal you mentioned David Cameron and
you have previously said I think
recently at the national conservative
conference that it is not surprising
that David Cameron who bet the farm on
the UK staying in the EU and lost David
Cameron is the conservative who has most
venomously turned on Israel the Paradigm
nation state now I tyeing this together
not only because we're talking about
Israel but because also we talked
earlier about Nation statism nationalism
and the conservative party in this
country have completely bought into the
supranational ideology away from
nationalism or if you can call I know
I'm sort of making up words here as we
go along but I'm curious firstly by what
you mean by David Cameron turning on
Israel but I'm also curious to
understand what your take is on
the the the kind of dire end of it seems
like the conservative party who are
heading towards electoral obliteration
they are indeed connected
um uh Cameron seems to me to be a
Universalist the idea that universalism
which is the Creed of the left is only
confined to the left the political left
I think is
wrong um a number of people who consider
themselves to be conservative call
themselves conservative and certainly
are in the conservative party in this
country um are universalists Cameron is
one of them which is why he was a
remainer uh why he fought um against
brexit and so on so forth now
um
he uh um has been using well for a long
time now um I know several
months uh his language has become much
more um I would say venomous against
Israel by venomous I mean he's turned on
Israel in a a a a an uncontable Way by
repeating the lies um for example the
lie that um they are wantedly killing
people that their that their civilian
the civilian casualties in G are are are
terrible that they are thwarting uh
humanitarian aid from coming in uh
without any kind of context that you
know the occasions when humanitarian Aid
has been thwarted is because it's not
humanit inade at all it's du it's it
could be used for nefarious purposes or
that Hamas are stealing it or that Hamas
are firing on the crossing points or
whatever uh no no Israel is is is
stopping humanitarian Aid I mean this is
this is this is a lie and killing too
many people we just we we've talked
about that the opposite is the case now
how can he put that put out these lies
um which not only um hurt
Israel weaken Israel by Britain turning
against it in this way but also incite
anti-Semitism they incite hatred of Jews
on the assumption that all Jews are
responsible for Israel which is of
common a common assumption uh every time
uh in in recent decades every time
Israel is portrayed as doing terrible
things to the Palestinians even though
it's based on lies people believe it and
the the literally the the the this the
the attacks on Jews in this country both
verbal and physical they Spike
immediately immediately so there's
direct line between the lies told about
Israel and incitement to Jew hatred in
this country he knows that if he doesn't
know it he's an idiot but that's
certainly the effect of what he's doing
and this to me is unconscionable now to
a certain extent you could say well the
British government has toughened up its
rhetoric generally because it has it's
Marching In lock step with the Biden
Biden Administration which itself turned
on Israel much more openly in the last
two or three months
uh so you could say that but to me it is
part
of um a general view which is that
Israel's great crime to people who hold
to Universalist principles is that
Israel is the Paradigm nation state uh
Israel actually or the Jewish people
created the the template for the nation
state in ancient Judea in ancient Israel
uh because uh it was um a nation
governed by its own laws in its own land
geographically
defined for which they
fought and that was consciously taken up
by all kinds of people including the
British uh ancient Britain the the the
the kings and queens and the monarchs of
of ancient Britain patent themselves on
this uh it's why there are rituals from
ancient judaic Rich rituals in the
coronation ceremony in America they
patent themselves on on on this precise
template so it's of ancient going back
into Antiquity it was the Paradigm
nation state and it is now the Paradigm
nation state in a world in which
received
opinion says the Nations the West the
western style nation state the West
failan nation state is an Abomination
it's the cause of War it's cause of
prejudice and all those terrible things
and here's Israel and not only is it a
nation state not only is it like a
patent on the word
but my goodness me it's defined by
ethnicity it's a Jewish nation state
can't have that the fact that the it's a
Jewish nation state means by definition
it is exclusive it is it is it is
therefore vile okay now it is a Jewish
nation state but you know the people who
say that are saying that the Jews are
not a nation these are people who
basically don't realize that the Jews
Jewish people is a nation it's not just
a religion it's a people it's a people a
nation under religion defined by in
Antiquity by land um they don't realize
that you know it is
a although it's a je Jewish nation state
you know 20% of the population is Arab
with full full civil rights um they
don't understand that it's not white
that most yeah you go to Israel you just
see it's like multiracial most Jews are
brown skinned because most of them came
from Arab lands because they there was
an ethnic cleansing of 850,000
Jews who were thrown out ethnically
cleansed persecuted and thrown out after
the state of Israel was created um and
20% are Arab and then a number of other
people so the Maj the vast majority of
Israelis are brown or black skinned
excuse me okay fine so nevertheless
Israel offends against the idea that
there shouldn't be a nation state
defined by ethnicity that's a terrible
thing and the conservative party coming
back to your
question I don't think the conservative
party as a whole thinks very much about
Israel well my my bigger concern isn't
necessarily their approach to Israel
though I am concerned it's more that yes
and and I tell you why it's actually is
because Israelis have a great concept of
nationhood and so and so because of that
self-confidence I'm not worried about
that my bigger concern is that Britain
yes do not correct and so what does that
mean for the future do that's why
they're ready for brexit right right
okay and the much of the shock of the of
the very significant part of the
conservative party which regards that as
as evidence of extremism or possibly
Insanity that's where the conservative
party has got to it doesn't understand
any it's not just a conservative party
it's all major parties libd labor and
conservatives well put them to one side
because they are you know Progressive
politics has bought in completely to
this nation universalism MH is where
we've been
discussing but it's in the conservative
party too so what are they conserving
they're not conserving anything that's
that's their essential problem in order
to conserve they have to
conserve you know
conservatism seems to me conservatism is
more a state of mind or an approach to
life than anything else it's not an
ideology per
se conservatism is
about literally conserving what is most
valuable uh in a society or a culture
and the conservative party as a whole
lost the plot when it failed to
understand that what is most valuable
about the nation of Britain is the
nation and that it has to preserve and
conserve the things that make it a
nation which
mean the Traditions the laws uh the the
the way of life which everybody shares
to a large extent and which gives them
all a common sense of marching together
with a common
purpose um and that isn't something to
be taken for granted it's been eroded
being eroded by the attacks on the core
beliefs uh of Western
Civilization um it's been attacked by
the growth of universalism and all those
things now the the Tories I mean they're
not for nothing where they call the
stupid party they really really really
are stupid and I remember thinking at
the time you know I mean the Berlin Wall
fell Soviet communism was no more hurrah
for sure and I remember the conservative
party saying huh what do we do now our
fox has been
shot and what do we do and here is this
guy Blair and he's like on our turf he's
really a conservative I mean where are
we going to go what's our cause and I
remember them saying it's quite clear
our cause now is liberty and I ever
thinking oh my goodness are they ever
wrong because the left was propounding
individualism Liberty for the individual
in the social
sphere My Lifestyle my truth is mine and
it's no worse or better than your truth
your lifestyle right that was the left
Liberty individual choice in
everything and here were the
conservatives saying individual Choice
Liberty and the conservatives expressed
it in economics they could only think in
terms of economics they only think in
terms of money so everything was the
market and you know it was said of Mrs
Stater she thought if everything in
Britain was run like Marx and Spencer
everything will be absolutely terrific
no sense of tradition tradition she
thought was a kind of conspiracy against
the market everything was the market
everything was the individual everything
was Freedom wrong wrong wrong that's
where the conservatives went completely
wrong they failed to understand you had
to conserve the traditions and codes and
borders of the country because the
nation is what you had to conserve and
the nation was under assault they never
understood it many of them still don't
understand it it seemed like for One
Moment In 2019 when Boris in the won
that election it seemed like maybe they
understood what you talking about now no
they understood that Boris was going to
win them elections but why did Boris win
that election Boris spoke to the people
Boris spoke to the people who are
basically conservative of the small sea
May many of whom voted labor the famous
red War but they're basically
conservative they want to conserve their
Traditions their way of life their
culture their neighborhood that their
attachments they're attached these are
people who are attached profoundly to
their locality their family their
locality and the nation whereas
universalists are in David goodhart's
Immortal phrase citizens of everywhere
or citizens of nowhere there they can be
anywhere Boris understood this he
connected with those people both in the
red wall and in the sh or conservative
areas but who got who get this and then
you know we all saw what happened uh he
was seen to have betrayed all that um he
didn't really mean it he was himself you
know he he blew himself up okay so
people were very disillusioned so now so
now if they're that kind of person
whether in the red wall or not the red
wall they're looking around and what do
they see they see David Cameron prancing
around with his Universalist message
they rishy sunak who kind
of he's a bean counter he's very
efficient he's very clever and uh what
does he actually stand for what does he
actually want what's his vision of of of
of the of the good Society what's his
vision of Britain no one knows is he is
he a Universalist is he a national state
man no one knows okay so there's a kind
of
vacuum
and the cultural mood music is the
people who voted for brexit or the the
the politician who supported brexit
they're all basically mad they're off
the wall there Nigel farage they're
terrible it's it's Victor Orban on on
steroids it's it's it's xenophobia it's
it's terrible things they're all hearing
this and then they look to labor and
they see somebody who's a Universalist
who is pretending not to be and they
think he's just pretending I don't trust
him for a
moment where do they go I don't yeah
yeah they're not voting for him they
don't they've got nowhere go yeah reform
disenfranchised going okay so reform I
does anyone who really take reform
seriously I don't I don't I don't think
he got what it takes
um there's people who have small C
conservative views based on their their
desire their deep desire to live in a
country they can call home which they
recognize they recognize it because they
recognize the traditions and the culture
and the values
and the laws that are particular to
Britain and the ability to not the
ability the desire to defend itself
through borders that are policed they
see all that's just gone and they're
desperate where do they go I can't
answer that no one can answer that you
know I mean no one knows how this is
going to work so by default they may
just I know they may sit at home in
which case labor wins or they may vote
for all kinds of small parties in which
case who knows what's going to happen
we're talking about the political there
which is where I pushed the conversation
but I but I'm also curious not just
about the political side just about the
cultural side of Britain that no one
anyone like yourself who stands up for
nation statism or or or British values
is shut down is called all sorts of
ridiculous things so we have this
culture where still and we've talked
about it several throughout this
conversation where in your pegged down
if you if you're patriotic and and
written off and it's it's so for with
that in mind are you pessimistic or
optimistic about the future if I was
pessimistic I wouldn't be continuing to
write um I think everything is to play
for uh do I think that
Britain and the West are going to
survive as as what they once were I
can't tell you that I I have no idea um
I know that if we stop fighting for that
then it is over then it is over we have
to fight we have to we have to behave as
if everything is to play for and I
believe actually everything is to play
for I believe you know there are
cultures in history
where they have died Rome
Greece uh so it happens great
civilizations that you think will go on
forever
disappear I also think about the Louch
and
wild 18th century in Britain and if we
you and I were sitting here in the 18th
century um in a coffee shop we will be
saying to each other it's over it's
finished look hugarian scenes outside or
indeed the 17th century women right
women in the gutter drunk gin
illegitimacy marriage's gone uh it's
over we're finished and then it became
the Victorian period hello it happens it
happens people pull back from the cliff
now I think with the right
leadership this country can pull back
from the cliff so can the
West there is no leadership that I can
see at the moment but in principle with
the right leaders the thing can be
turned around quite quickly quite
quickly it needs somebody by by by a
leader I mean somebody who understands
what we've just what I've just been
talking about I someone agre agrees with
me fine okay fine Mel why aren't you
standing up why aren't you running for
right right put aside my uh monomania
for a
moment um but somebody who really does
get it and who doesn't you know Lurch
into you know authoritarianism on the
other side uh you know doesn't go over
over to the to the other side and become
someone who negates um uh uh a decent
Society but somebody who understands
what it takes so you know you've got to
transform the education system you've
got to reinen divize traditional
marriage hello mother father children
sorry okay doesn't mean you're going to
be beasty to everybody else no it just
means you got to say this is the best
way we can ever devise of people being
happy and fulfilled and emotionally
healthy so excuse me that is the best
way and you know we've got to be nice to
everybody else but we've got to
prioritize this because otherwise we're
collectively dead Okay birth rate this
country is literally dying like most
Western
countries
um I've done episodes on that on the the
birth crisis so interestingly yeah the
one Western Country Western sty country
which is Bucking this trend the only one
as far as I can see is
Israel okay the the entire West is dying
indigenously dying it's not replacing
itself it's having to import people to
keep its essential Services
running was it 1.6 child children per
woman is the replacement rate something
like that it's either 1.2 or 1.6 I can't
quite remember it's 2.1 it's over two
for to replace okay 2.1 whatever
whatever it is okay fine Israel is
nearly four children per woman so
everybody goes oh yeah like the ultra
Orthodox we're all having a million
children well yes they are having
million children although their birth
rate has come down from 12 per woman to
a mere eight okay but the fact
is that it's not the ultra Orthodox that
are pushing this it's population in
general now why are they pushing it
because all the attributes are in place
for a western style birth rate to
collapse because people think well the
the birth rates collaps in the West
because of the empowerment of women
women's priorities have changed they're
working they're educated they don't want
they want children okay that's why no
that's not the reason that's all the
case in Israel too very much so very
very much so the women
work the key in my view is that the
country knows what it is it values what
it is it's attached to its Traditions it
wants to perpetuate those traditions it
wants to have children to perpetuate the
culture the nation the Traditions it has
hope in the future it is a country of
such immense optimism despite the fact
it is surrounded by enemies currently
fighting on seven fronts simultaneously
it is still one of the most happy and
fulfilled countries in the world and all
that gets translated into we want to
continue we want to collectively
continue understand the collective
Endeavor we don't just understand it we
don't just know what we are we value it
we value it so highly we will die for it
we are dying for it today now that's
what Britain has to become again that's
what the West has to become again to
Value itself to want to perpetuate
itself to want to defend itself sounds a
very tall order it can be turned round
quite quickly people people want this
they want to be optimistic they don't
want to think that everything is
terrible they don't want to be depressed
they don't they they they want to have
hope in the future they want someone to
give them the Hope in the future they
want to be attached they don't like
being randomist atoms in the universe of
Nations where not really Nations at all
whirling around you know and
genuflecting to the United Nations and
the international criminal court they
don't want that so give them what they
want because what they want is good
wholesome healthy and will save their
nation and Western Civilization it's
quite simple it's not rocket science
history teaches us
this tool order
absolutely impossible absolutely
not I love a a moment of Hope to finish
my episode as I suspected Melanie we did
even get to a fraction of the questions
or even topics that I wanted to get to I
want to push readers you've got written
so many great books you are a prophet as
far as I'm concerned uh
londonistan which is nearly 20 years old
could have been written yesterday um or
post October
7th every chapter from the red green
Alliance I think you call it red black
Alliance to multiculturalism are issues
today just as important as they were 20
years ago the sex change societ
which you have to
republish um because reading it today
with the eyes of today um 25 years after
I could do a whole episode with you just
on that and hopefully we can do that in
the future it's a date um I uh want to
say thank you so much and um Can is
there anywhere that you'd like listeners
to find you yes what what thank you for
mentioning this yes um I have a website
where all my work uh is uh showcased is
stored it's uh Melanie phillips.
substack
doccom um and uh I have an email list
you can join the email list I will send
you therefore uh you get sent
automatically uh my work as it's
published on the website or you can just
go to the website and read it all um you
can read most of it for free some of it
only for if for a small payment but
that's where you can find me melan if
philip. sub.com wonderful I also hope as
you suggested before we were rolling
that you are going to you have finished
a new book I have that's about to be
published are we our listeners allowed
to know the title uh the title is the
elephant in the room you will have to
read it to find out what the elephant is
um it is I've just finished it last week
and the manuscript is now with my agent
uh so watch this space how very excited
I hope that when you publish we can talk
again I'd also love to get into your
personal story which we talked about a
little bit before recording that I'm
always Keen to understand how people
like you are able to so courageously say
the difficult thing that no one else has
the courage to say and and um that to me
is very interesting but we went so deep
that I I I think it's it's too big a
topic to start just like that now but
Melanie Phillips thank you so much for
speaking with me thank you for giving me
the opportunity to speak about at such
length to speak about life the universe
and everything
thank you for watching the Winston
Marshall show if you enjoyed that
episode well I encourage you to like
share and subscribe you can also find us
on all podcast Outlets if you want just
the audio and of course on Winston
marshall.co thanks for listening